The Union Steve?

[cdave]

Ah yes, I remember the other thing I wanted to post about.

This has recently appeared on the flag pole on Jubilee Gardens.



It's barely fluttering, so it took us a few minutes to figure out what was wrong. The colours are the wrong way round!

Anyone know what's going here?

Comments

[makyo.livejournal.com]

Interesting. It's the right way up, though, it's just the colours red and blue which have been transposed. Properly, this is only the Union Steve if it's being flown from a naval vessel, otherwise it's the Union Glaf.

I learned a couple of years ago that the Union Flag is actually a bit more complicated than I thought. It's composed of the flags of St George (argent, a cross gules), St Andrew (azure, a saltire argent) and St Patrick (argent, a saltire gules) but the way the flags of Ss Andrew and Patrick are combined turns out to be more complex than I'd previously understood: it's a saltire (X-shaped cross) divided into eight segments (gyronny) alternating white (argent) and red (gules) starting from the top-left segment. This is displayed on a blue (azure) field, but to avoid having red on blue (which isn't easily distinguishable from a distance) the whole thing is given a white edging (fimbriated argent). This is why some of the white stripes are wider than the others. Finally, a white-edged red cross (a cross gules fimbriated argent) is put on top.

[cdave]

Several of us thought something was wrong, but couldn't tell what. It was while checking online to remind myself which way is up that I spotted the colours.

In retrospect you're probably the person I'd have thought most likely to know if it was an official thing.

I did suspect that it's a protest. But damned if I can tell what it's in aid of.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

Not a jot of the Welsh flag, of course.

[makyo.livejournal.com]

According to this, the Welsh flag (per fess argent and vert, a dragon passant gules) only received official recognition in 1959, although it had been in use for some centuries before. The green and white were added during Tudor times but the red dragon dates back much further.

More recently, the flag of St David (sable, a cross or) has risen in popularity, as has the flag of St Piran in Cornwall. I guess these are both alternative candidates for incorporation into a redesigned Union flag, although the result would end up being rather complicated.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

Or we could just stick a red dragon right in the middle.

[makyo.livejournal.com]

Yes, that'd probably be a sensible compromise (and has the added advantage that it'd irritate people who probably deserve to be irritated).

[idaho-smith.livejournal.com]

Red dragon on top of a red cross and red saltire = v.v.bad heraldry/vexilology.

Also the people in your link do have a point: the current flag is the Crosses/Saltires of the national saints, not the national symbol itself: St.George, St Andrew and St. Patrick. The dragon is a national symbol, not a saint's. The parallels would be the three 'gold' Lions courant of England, the 'Red' Lion rampant of Scotland and either the gold harp of Ireland or the Red hand of Ulster.
Nonetheless, it might be easier than trying to get a gold-on-black roman cross to agree with what we have already.

[makyo.livejournal.com]

Yes, good point. Maybe the cross of St David could be combined with the cross of St George in the same way that the saltires of Ss Patrick and Andrew are: a cross gyronny gules and or, fimbriated argent perhaps.

[sharikkamur.livejournal.com]

I'd never thought of it as both gyronny and fimbriated, but now that you mention it... I'd occasionally wondered why it was set up so unevenly but that would explain it nicely.

Thanks for that. :)

[makyo.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's a nice way of thinking about it. I think I originally read it in a thread on rec.heraldry.

[(Anonymous)]

I sooooo wanted to come up with a letmegooglethatforyou.com moment for you, but sadly failed.

Fact-ette though - apparently the Philippines swap the colours round on their flag when they're at war.

Neil.

[cdave]

Did you see that little spat on facebook news feed then?